讲的很好，关键是中英文对照。万一哪天有个老外唧唧歪歪问我tibet的问题，可以随时翻出来对拍。
发信人: Avenue (大道－施主，早死早超生啊), 信区: Writing
标 题: 唐死你系列之科普西藏
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sat Apr 5 11:51:08 2008)
前几天某唐给我看一个人的flickr，图片在这里：
然后某唐就耐心的对丫进行了教育。我觉得写的实在很赞，忍不住要翻译了之后转发过来
解释一下起因是flickr上某热烈支持藏独的艺术家贴了张藏族文字，下写“does this look like chinese ”和
禁句，然后就是说服教育，不过我把前面关于中文字样不同的讨论去掉了。
As you might find, languages, like cultures, have been influencing eachother in geographically nearby regions due to neighboring activities such astrading, in the thousands of years in human history. Japanese language andculture surely had been influenced by Chinese, as another example. Germanand Dutch probably shared close relationship as ell, even though I'm noexpert in European history.
也许你会发现，语言，就像文明一样，受到地域因素的强烈影响。彼此邻近的国家或者地域会因为贸易等其他的交流形式而互相影响。例如日本的语言和文化就有明显的中国元素，另一个例子可以参考德国和荷兰。
As for Mongols, it as a long story...Even though Mongolia is an independentcountry no, it had a very long interactive history ith China. and thereare lot of Ethnic Mongolian people (Chinese citizen) living in China, mostlyin the Inner Mongolia province on the north border beteen the tocountries. They preserved much of their cultures, still speak their language( as ell as Manderin Chinese as it's the standard language in China, asEnglish in the US regardless of here your ancestors are from), and singtheir songs in their ays.
至于蒙古人，那就是更长的故事了...虽然蒙古现在是一个独立的国家，但在历史上它与中国有着千丝万缕而且漫长的关联。而到现在，在中国也居住着大量中国籍的蒙古族人，他们大部分都居住在内蒙古，位于中国与蒙古俩个国家的交界处。他们对自己的文化传统保护的很好，交流上依然使用自己的民族语言，并且用自己的方式演唱他们的民族歌曲（普通话是中国的主要语言，就像在美国不管你的祖先是哪儿来的，主要都还是使用英文一样）。
To sho a larger picture, here is a nice one:.paulnoll.com/China/Minorities/China-Nationalities.html
You can click the links to see pictures of those ethnic minority people andread about their interesting culture. Many of them probably don't look likethe "typical" Chinese in terms of their faces and costumes. But that's hothe Chinese policies allo and encourage them to preserve as members of thelarge multi-cultural family.
要想更好的了解情况，来看看这个网站，你可以通过点击这个
文字链接看那些少数民族的照片和他们的有趣习俗。如果光从脸和服装来判断的话，他们中的许多人看起来并不是典型的中国人模样，但这正是中国的政策允许并且鼓励他们通过这种方式，在一个巨大的多文化家庭中保持自己的文化传统。
I guess there's something hard for many people to understand, that China hasbeen a nation ith multi-ethnic history and cultures for a long time, asAmerican people might proudly say in another 2000 years...For example, Isuspect my father's side of the family actually has ethnic minority heritagefor they are from a southern island in China close to Thailand, and I looklike Thai or Burmese according to some people from those countries. I'mpersonally proud of my large and historical home country. And it's been ahurtful thing to see people in the estern orld, ithout knoing much aboutsome facts, so hole heartily determined to break my home country apart. It's especially hurtful to see some talented artists like you, Bjork andothers, using their beautiful styles and influences to spread the campaignith no regard of some basic truth and the feeling of the Chinese (including Hans, Tibetans, and others).
我猜想对于有些人来说，很难真正的体会和理解中国这样一个有着悠久的多民族多文化国家，象美国人民也许还需要2000年的时间才能这样自豪的自我宣称。例如，我很怀疑我爹那边儿的家族其实有着少数民族血统的，他们从中国南方的一个靠近泰国的岛上迁徙到内陆，而我看起来比较象泰国人或者缅甸人[翻译的人说： 某唐你比泰国人或者缅甸人好看多了]。我个人非常为我的祖国有着广袤悠久的历史而感到自豪，所以当我看到西方社会在不充分了解事实的情况下，就全心全意的想分裂我的祖国，我感到非常的痛苦。尤其是看到有些富有才华的艺术家们，例如你[翻译的人说：这人照片拍的可以，就是除了照片之外就没有什么 sense]，比约克[翻译的人说：这是个没有什么品味的大傻差]，还有其他的各位，在根本不考虑中国人（包括汉人，藏人和其他民族的人）的感受和基本事实的情况下，利用你们美化过的方式和影响力来传播这种分裂意识。
Again, I hope communication ill help all of us understand each other better. And I hope my kind efforts ould help bring us closer, to build arelatively better orld.
所以，在这里我希望这样的交流能帮助我们更好的理解对方，同时我也希望我的努力能使我们彼此更加接近，来建立一个相对更美好的世界。
在这之后，那哥们这样回答：
i understand hat you are trying to say, but it stil doesn't look right tome if you take a toy from someone it doesn't mean it's yours, but that is akarma issue so for example if france ould invade my country it doesn't makeme french, it's as simple as that，also the scriptures you are shoing meare all arabic scriptures or derivated from arabic, so it still doesn't lookat all like tibetan
我大概能理解你想说什么，但在我看来，你从别人那里抢来的东西并不意味着那就是属于你的。就好像法国入侵我的国家也不能让我变成法国人一样，就这么简单。而且你给我看的那些字儿，他们就是阿拉伯文字，或者是从阿拉伯文衍化而来的，看起来根本不象藏文。[翻译的人说：在鬼子们的眼里，方块字看起来都是一样吧？蝌蚪字看起来都是一样吧？罗马字和英文字看起来都差不多吧？这会儿又说不象了。]
mabe you can tell me, because i really don't understand, hy they had toinvade tibet, if it as china all along, an invasion shouldn't be neededright?you are of coarse right that i don't kno mutch about the situationthere, but hat they tell us here, and hat people ho fled aay tell usabout it, and people don't just run aay from their country for fun
也许你可以告诉我，因为我实在难以理解，如果西*藏一直都属于中国，那为什么他们非要入侵那里呢？侵略行为根本就是不必要的对吧？当然，你说的对，我的确对那里的情况不甚了解，但是根据他们在这里告诉我们的，还有那些逃亡的人所说的，（我能得出自己的结论）人们不会因为好玩就从自己的国家逃亡的。[翻译的人说：这哥们的逻辑果真很差]
然后某唐再次耐心回复：
Part III have to first clarify the fact that the second link I gave you, thoseEgyptian looking characters, as not from Arabic influences. The regionhere it's from is east to Tibet. and Manchurian people originally residedin northeast of China, not far from Japan. Tibetan characters ere mostlikely influence by Hindu for it's location, of course.
我得先澄清一下，我给你的第二个链接，那些看起来象埃及文的文字，实际上跟阿拉伯文一点儿关系都没有。那些文字的起源其实是西藏以东，满族人最早居住在中国的东北地区，距离日本不远的地方，藏文其实受到印度文字的影响最大。
As for your question on "hy they had to invade tibet", I did some readingshen this question rose in the past. To be honest, groing up in China, Ididn't learn about the detailed history on this in school. I later readarticles ritten in English and Chinese. I can't say it's the absolute truthand nothing but the truth, but it definitely helped me.
关于你提到的“为什么他们非要入侵西*藏？”，在过去这个问题被多次提出时，我做过一些阅读，老实说，在中国长大的过程中，我在学校没能获得关于这部分历史的详尽知识，后来我读了一些中文和英文的相关文章，虽然我不能说这些文章是绝对真实的，或者除了事实其他什么私货都没有，但它们对我的帮助非常之大。
Historically, Tibet had a very close tie ith China for many years. Forexample in fact, the Chinese emperors (many generations, for accurateaccount please search on line.) and their commitee ere involved in decidingon the reborn Dalai and Banchan (Banchan is less knon to the estern orldeven though it's an important role religiously as poerful as Dalai),henthe old ones passed. In another ord, Dalai and Banchan Lamas,as bothspiritual and political leaders in Tibet region in the history, ere chosenon both spiritual/religious basis and political basis, hile Chinesegovernment as a part of the decision making. Another evidence, ratherironic: "In the thirteenth century, Emperor Kublai Khan created the firstGrand Lama, ho as to preside over all the other lamas as might a pope overhis bishops. Several centuries later, the Emperor of China sent an armyinto Tibet to support the Grand Lama, an ambitious 25-year-old man, ho thengave himself the title of Dalai (Ocean) Lama, ruler of all Tibet. Here is ahistorical irony: the first Dalai Lama as installed by a Chinese army." (Quoted from the article belo)
历史上，西藏与中国有着多年的紧密联系，例如，事实上中国皇帝（许多朝代的中国皇帝，具体情况请自己google吧）和他们的执行人，在老一代Dalai和班禅（对西方人来说，班禅没有Dalai那么出名，但事实上他在宗教上的地位是与Dalai一样重要的）去世时，介入他们转世接班人的寻找和决定。所以换句话来说就是，在西藏宗教和历史上作为精神领袖和政治领袖的Dalai和班禅的认定，不仅仅受到精神宗教层面影响，也要参考政治上的因素，所以中国政府（别管哪届哪代政府）在寻找转世灵童的过程中始终担任了重要角色。不无讽刺的是另一个证据，“十三世纪时，忽必烈任命了第一代大喇嘛，负责统治其他的喇嘛们，就像教皇凌驾在其他主教们之上一样。几个世纪后，当时的中国皇帝派出军队进入西*藏支持当时的大喇嘛，他是一个25岁野心勃勃的年轻人，自己给自己命名为Dalai (Ocean) Lama，掌管西藏。所以这其实有些讽刺意味，第一代的Dalai喇嘛其实是在中国军队的帮助下起家的。”（摘自下面的链接文章）
I can's say these proved that Tibet as officially a part of China but it'sobvious that the 2 had a very close relationship. Tibetan culture, includingTibetan Buddhism influenced Mainland Chinese culture as ell as MongulCulture, and Chinese culture, aids, and trades affected the Tibetan's.
当然我不能说这是西-藏属于中国的官方论证，但是显然它说明了西-藏和中国确实有着紧密的联系。西-藏的文化，包括藏传佛教，就像蒙古文化一样，对中国内陆文化产生了很大的影响，而中国内陆的文化，资助，贸易等等活动，反过来也在影响着西-藏。
In the 1950's after the II, before the "invasion" of the Chinese, Tibetas a desirable spot cecause it's located in the middle of everything. Manycountries anted tibet, including India, China, Russian and the UK. I foundit quite fascinating that the UK and Russian had their hands on it sincethey don't even border Tibet in anyay, nor did they have anything to doith it... You might be interested to read about that part of the history,in short it seemed like a cat-fight to me. e humans love cat-fights throughout history, this one as no difference. The only thing that I think made a"difference" to the estern orld about this one is that China on. Chinanever did in the recent history. Especially it's the Red China under thecommunism party. You kno, it's upsetting and offensive since this gaveChina, the rising poer, a giant piece of land and the glory of victory.ell, I admit this is my interpretation of the estern psyche. You don'thave to agree ith me. But the fact as that many countries anted Tibet andif China didn't claim it, India or Russian or the UK ould have. That said,Tiebt ould NOT have been an independent country anyay. It's a hard truth,I kno, but it's all because our human nature of expanding and poerhunting...
二战后50年代，在所谓的中国“入侵”前，因为地理上的重要地位，西-藏是诸国列强都想占有的好地方。许多国家都对它垂涎三尺，包括印度，中国，俄罗斯和英国。我发现一个非常有趣而可笑的事实，英国和俄罗斯其实与西-藏根本连国土交界或者一丁点儿的关联都没有，却无法按捺他们对西-藏的染指之心…如果你愿意的话，可以去读读这个方面的历史，会发现许多有趣之处，但简而言之，对我来说，那不过就是一场cat-fight[翻译的人说：小猫打架，通常用于形容女性之间行为和言语上的厮打，含贬义，意思就是其实谁也不占理，谁都没逻辑，根本不是什么正义之战，就是忍不住要拿爪子挠对方，挠出血了才爽]。纵观人类历史，可见人们最喜欢的就是cat-fight，这一个其实也不例外。我觉得唯一一点与过往不同的地方，就是这次中国赢了[翻译的人说：哦，耶]。毕竟近代以来中国都没赢过，尤其是这次赢了架的还是红色共-产-主-义中国，你知道，看到中国逐渐崛起富强，又披上了胜利的荣光，这可让相当一部分人感到非常的不爽。好吧，我承认这只是我个人对西方意识形态的理解，你可以保留你的意见。但是事实上，如果中国没有宣布对西-藏的主权，许多其他的国家其实也会这么干。这就是说，西-藏其实根本不会成为一个真正的独立的国家。我知道这是一个很令人难以接受的事实，但这就是人性，对扩张领土的渴望，对获得强权的追求…
well, could Tibet stay the ay it as if say the UK took it? Let's talkabout hat Tibet as like before the Chinese "invasion". I read severalarticles on this as ell.
所以，如果英国占有了西-藏，它能保持原来的样子吗？ 让我们谈谈在所谓的中国“入侵”前，西－藏本来是什么样的吧，我正好也读了一些这个方面的文章。看看
这篇文章，它也提到了中国军队帮助第一代Dalai发家的事情。
here is one (it also mentions that the first Dalai Lama as installed byChinese Army, as I as talking about above...):.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
Evidences pointed to the real Tibet being a brutal slavery society ithdictatorship and extreme inequality. The Tibetan Buddhism, quite differentfrom the imaginary Buddhism e all tend to believe, as not free of bloodquenching tortures. “Religious conflict as commonplace in old Tibet,” “History belies the Shangri-La image of Tibetan lamas and their folloersliving together in mutual tolerance and nonviolent goodill. Indeed, thesituation as quite different. Old Tibet as much more like Europe duringthe religious ars of the Counterreformation.”
有证据指出，真正的西-藏社会其实有着血腥残酷的奴隶制传统，在奴隶主专政的制度下，整个社会极端的不平等。而藏传佛教，也并非如你所希望去相信的那么美好纯净，相反，它们是血淋淋的。“宗教冲突在旧时代的西-藏那简直就是家常便饭啊。”“历史上把西-藏描绘成喇嘛和他们的信徒们友好安详的生活在一起的理想天堂，彼此相亲相爱，和平共处。可是事实上的情况正相反，旧时代的西-藏更象宗教改革时候的欧洲。”
I agree that nobody ould flee their home country for fun. I couldunderstand hy the fled Tibetans say so much bad things of the Chinese.Imagine if you ere one of the European lords ruling over thousands ofslaves and serfs, and one day all of a sudden people from the outside orldcame in and took all you had aay, and then you had to run in fear, and thenof course you ant hat you had back and you ant the orld to kno theyare evil people. It happened many times in human history henever there asa revolution of some sorts and hen the rulers ere overthron. Most of thefled Tibetans, in my knoledge, ere the upper class land oners and lamas (ho had the political poer) and not the orking class majority. I don'tkno if you ould agree ith me that the good for the majority is moreimportant than the good to the kings and lords....
我同意你说的，没有人会仅仅出于“好玩”这样的原因从自己的国家逃亡，我也能够理解为什么那些逃亡的藏人会说那么多关于中国的坏话。你不妨想象一下，如果你是欧洲的大庄园主或者贵族，本来有着几千个奴隶和仆人伺候你，结果忽然一夜之间，你曾经拥有的这一切荣华富贵什么的全都被外来的人拿走取消了，而你只能吓的逃跑，那当然你会希望取回这一切，你也会希望全世界都知道那些夺走你的东西的人都是邪恶的家伙。其实，在人类的历史上，每逢改革或者改朝换代的时候，这种情况就都会发生。据我所知，那些逃亡的藏人大部分都是旧时代西藏的高层统治阶级，要么是拥有大片土地的农奴主，要么就是有着实际政治权力的喇嘛，他们并非真正的普通劳苦大众。我不知道你是否赞同我的意见，就是只有符合大部分人利益的幸福才是真正的幸福，而不是为了满足那些少数贵族们的欲望。
Should the UK or India have kept the slavery rules and rulers if they onthe cat fight in the 1950's? I don't think they should or ould. ThereforeTibet ould not have been "100% preserved" politically, as the fled Tibetansould really ant. Culturally, I can't give you hard evidences, but I sadlybelieve that no ancient cultures have had or could in the future survivethis crazy modern orld ithout changing someho... Based on my knoledge onthe Chinese policies to Ethnic minorities, I have to say they are fairlygood, though not perfect. e, as modern liberal artists, don't like to seeany ancient cultures changing from it's original form, but is it thegovernment to blame or the modern technology and market economy? Many peopleI kno in remote regions and poor countries ant to be richer and to gainmore financial freedom and opportunities to advance, they ant to make moremoney and buy the 40-inch flat screen instead of earing their traditional50lb headdress everyday and shutting the school door to young girls. ouldyou call it a forard or backard progress? I really can't tell...
那么如果英国或者印度赢了这场cat-fight的话，他们会不会保持农奴制呢？我认为他们不会也不应该这么做。所以从政治的角度来说，西藏根本就不会象那些逃亡的藏人希望的那样“100％原封不动”。那么从文化的角度来说，我没法给你确凿的证据，虽然这是一个令人悲伤的现实，我也不得不承认，没有哪一种古文明能在现在这种疯狂的现代化社会中分毫不变的保存下去。根据我个人对中国少数民族政策的了解，我觉得它们挺好的，虽然远远说不上完美。我们作为现代自由的艺术家们，不愿意看到任何古文明产生哪怕一点儿的改变，但是，我们究竟该把责任推到政府的头上呢？还是该归咎于现代的科技发展和市场经济？许多我认识的一些边远山区或者贫穷国家的人，他们都希望能富有起来，获得更多的经济上的自由和发展的机会，他们也想挣更多的钱，买的起40寸的大屏幕彩电[翻译的人说：这也是我的理想啊，我也还买不起呢]，而不是每天都带着50磅的民族头饰，或者不许女孩子读书。你会把这种愿望渴求称为进步呢还是倒退呢？
So that as HISTORY. Let's look at Today and Tomorro. ould Tibet become abetter place if e "free" it from China tomorro? I doubt it. As you canread in the article above, the US has been deeply involved in the last 60+years, other countries like India might still ant it, and I unfortunatelydon't trust the the fled Tibetans, ho ere slave lords 60 years ago and don't seem to regret, to build a peaceful society there. ould it do theTibetan people (I mean those ho live in Tibet, hom the esterners don'treally hear from ithout personally visiting Tibet) any good if e start aar tomorro and tear it aay from China from hich they have been receivinga tremendous amount of aids in terms of finance, technology, education, andmedical??? I doubt it.
所以啊，这就是历史。让我们看看今天和明天，如果我们让西藏从中国获得独立，它真的会因此而变得更好吗？就像你能从上述的那篇文章中能够读到的那样，美国在过去的60年间一直试图插手西藏的事务，而其他的国家例如印度，也还一直在旁边虎视耽耽。而我不能相信那些逃亡藏人，那些60年前的农奴主们，就看他们一点儿都不觉得农奴制有什么不好的态度，我不觉得他们能建设一个和平美好的西藏社会。那么，对那些普通的西藏人民来说，我是指那些目前生活在西藏，那些需要你亲自到那片土地上与他们交谈的人们，如果我们明天就发起一场战争，把这篇土地从中国版图上撕裂，那么他们就能获得大量的更多的经济上，技术上，教育上还有医疗上的资助吗？
I understand the fled Tibetans' pain and ill to revenge as the formerrulers. Therefore I question their motives. I also question the motives ofsome of the pro-free-tibet people and countries in the estern orld - hatdo they really ant to see in China and Tibet? Is this hole thing in anyayconstructive? Hatreds and revenge don't make the orld a better place,neither do violent Riot nor one-sided propaganda. I think there could be amillion different perspectives and a million different suggestion on hoTibet should be treated, by hat government, and in hat conditions. ButChina's right of maintaining the integrity of territory should be at leastrespected.
我能理解那些逃亡的藏人的痛苦，也能理解作为前统治者他们希望报复和恢复统治的愿望。因此我置疑他们的动机，同样，我也不禁置疑那些所谓的支持藏-独的人和西方国家的动机。他们到底希望看到中国和西藏发生什么呢？这一切有一点儿建设性的意义吗？仇恨和报复不会使这个世界变得更好，而流血暴力事件和一方抹黑式的宣传也不会有什么好的效果。我想，关于西藏问题该如何解决大家都有着无数的不同意见和建议。但是，中国对西藏的主权应该得到最起码的尊重。
I can't say that Bjork or you are rong for passionately believing in hatyou believe, as an idea for a better orld, because I passionately believein it too. But I think there's a chance that the artists, as ell as manyothers, are used, manipulated and abused by not being offered the hole andreal story. Again, I'm no historian or Tibet issue scholar, I say theseords based on my readings and thinkings. There must be a lot moreinformation e can find on line and in the library that could help us alllearn more about it. I hope e all just become better people in the process.
我不能说比约克或者你那么充满了热情的坚守你们的信念是错误的[翻译的人说：就是错的。狂热的坚持错误的信仰，其实就是傻差行为]，你们只是希望这个世界变得更好，而我也这样热切的希望着。但是我认为对于艺术家们来说，就像其他的某些人一样，有一定的可能性在一定的程度上，他们被利用了。他们被灌输了不全面和不真实的信息，他们的热情和影响力因此被滥用。我得再次声明，我不是一个历史学家，或者西藏问题的专家，以上我说的这些话是建立在我的阅读和思考基础上。我相信在网上或者图书馆里可以找到更多的更全面的有用知识，来帮助我们更好的了解事实情况。我只是希望在这个过程中，我们都能成为更好的人ം
文章提到的那个很像埃及文字的图在这里：
我也想把那个引发争论的照片贴出来，不过我怕被请去喝茶（泪目）。。。所以呢，用这个代替吧.
标签： 砂
